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Zaostritev EU zakonodaje o orožju
Mr. T, večini ljudi tukaj je do sedaj verjetno že jasno, da drsimo v totalitarizem. To je dejstvo, ki ga ne moreš spregledati.  Politični sistem EU in sistemi nacionalnih držav so inherentno korumpirani, delujejo v škodo večine prebivalstva in reč se bo prej ali slej podrla tako, da je vprašanje le, ali bo diktatura leva ali desna. 

A v tej debati to ne pomaga. Pomaga le aktivacija in usmerjeno delo, tako kot je tomanejc razložil. Tudi z dobrim PR-om in pametnimi argumenti se da marsikaj narediti. Ne moreš pa v Sloveniji ali EU ponavljati NRA slogane, ker je pravno in družbeno okolje drugačno, ne glede na to, zakaj je temu tako.

Osebno mi je debata zanimiva kot rekreativnemu strelcu in lastniku B7. Podpisal sem peticijo, pisal EU parlamentu in delam na tem, da ne bi ostal brez štirice. Zame (in samo zame) je to dovolj, glede na to kakšno vlogo ima orožje v mojem življenju. Z veseljem pa podprem vsako dobro iniciativo.
“So I say, “Live and let live.” That’s my motto. “Live and let live.” And anyone who can’t go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker. It’s a simple philosophy, but it’s always worked in our family.”
George Carlin
Kaj bodi zdej ta neumni zakon sprejeli in prepovedali orožje al ne ?
Ne bit neucakan, se prehiter bo
(27-11-2015, 16:10)gg Napisal: Ne bit neucakan, se prehiter bo

Upam, da ne bo, no, ne me narebe razumet, skrbi me, da res kaj takega ne uvedejo.... Shootme
Vsaj čehi malce migajo

Bablefish prevod ,
Citat:Černochová (ODS) refuse arms reduction by the European Commission! We do not know much about where the terrorists are legally holding a gun, is not it?
27. 11. 2015 12:39
[b]Speech at the 36th meeting of the Chamber of Deputies on 27 November 2015[/b]

[Image: image.ashx?w=632&h=307&f=cernochova_6356...g&id=73019]
Photo: [b]Archives[/b]
Description: [b]John Černochová[/b]

Indeed we all live in the reality of what is happening around us. I think it bothers us all of them. And I do not know to what extent you were able to record something that is relatively fresh, that happened sometime last week, about the tightening of conditions for the acquisition and possession of weapons and ammunition by this Regulation or the Directive arises from the proposal that the European Commission, which should of course be part of the legislative process within the European Union.
And I had you allowed to ask for the inclusion of this item on today's meeting, because yesterday when we're discussing the law on public procurement, so here again the Minister resounded words even from some other speakers: Well, again, our little European Commission ordered a We have no choice but to proceed with the implementation.
I do not want to get into a situation with me and hopefully none of you that sometime in March, maybe April, our deputies in this situation and get it here, we will have to deal with and it's already under sanctions. Therefore, I would ask, and my intention is indeed perhaps the rational for all of you to accept as the Chamber of Deputies after it will put the issue on the agenda, a resolution which clearly legislature declares that refuse to lift restrictions on weapons that actually the people from the Ministry of Industry and Trade and the Ministry of Interior, who before discussing the European Commission will go to the talks in Brussels will have from us as to the legislature a clear mandate.
If you commit adoption of a draft European Commission directive restricting the sale and possession of weapons in the European Union, it is for me an absolute restriction on the freedoms and rights of citizens across the European Union, not just the Czech Republic. And there is this dangerous precedent. Creating meaningless or embracing, thus vague legislative measures on the sale and possession of firearms is a further demonstration of impotence Brussels adequately respond to the ensuing security threats and risks. It seemed absolutely absurd that something like Brussels comes after a series of terrorist attacks in Paris, Belgium and other countries.
Not enough to raise an eyebrow at the fact that the European Commission increases the security of EU citizens and fighting terrorism manner unprecedented manner, which wants to disarm the citizens of the European Union. As far as I know, and please, or I bring out someone with privilege of mistakes, we do not know much about where the terrorists are legally held weapon and use it?Comes a new era of European integration, the epoch when the European Commission does not fight with problems and do not face challenges, but the haggling with the Member States and proposes a completely new nonsense solutions. Notionally to war with a stamp in hand against its citizens and their rights. The Commission's proposal to convince myself that such measures throw us back to the times of oppression. I hope that if it should happen that the proposal will actually be presented to the European Parliament and the European Council, will find enough reason to categorically reject the Commission proposal. In this context, I would like to mention that fraction in which the Civic Democratic Party, so clearly rejected the draft directive.
And I would thus like to ask colleagues who sit in the Chamber of Deputies and they also have representatives in the European Parliament appealed to them - so do they in their fractions.
To confess in what actually forbids everything, so let me read you an open letter LEX Association, an association for the protection of the rights of gun owners, supporters of gun control legislation across Europe:
Dear colleagues, as I write to you from the Czech Republic, let me first tell you our country introduced. In our country the possession and carrying of weapons real right guaranteed by law to every adult on a competent and law-abiding man. Gun license is claimed. Anyone who meets the conditions of the law, he is entitled. Permission for weapons in category B are also claimable as well as a permit to carry weapons.
We have short arms, which are used for target shooting and wear them for self-defense. We have a semi-automatic rifles derived from military weapons which are used in various sports competitions and practicing with them in the event that our beloved country needed its citizens to be ready to defend it.
Our hunting tradition dates back over a thousand years into the past and our marksmen from the Olympics rarely come back without a medal. Women exception.
According to the Institute for Economics and Peace, we also ten safest countries in the world. Violent crime is our low crime rate and a firearm negligible. Along with Switzerland, whose tradition of freedom, democracy and independence greatly admire, is an example of our republic, that in order to land was armed, peaceful and free, does not require anything more than a firm commitment to its people not to let anyone take these values.
We are sure that you know the current situation, writes the association to protect the rights of gun owners. In response to the terrorist attacks in Paris perpetrated prohibited automatic weapons and certainly illegal explosives, the European Commission wants to pretend ability to protect the citizens of European countries by allowing them to restrict the lawful possession of firearms. The proposed measures include - and here please sharpened to all those who today already own a gun license of any kind - so these limitations are: Firstly, a ban on semi-automatic rifles that resemble automatic weapons. A ban on weapons that the terrorist attacks in Paris were not used but are important for national defense in many states. Secondly, automatic weapons and semi-automatic weapons is due to be automatic banned after depreciation. All collections would be outlawed except in museums, but that will have to devalue its exhibits, thereby irreparably damaging their historical and cultural value.
You know, I'm the mayor of Prague 2, where we have the crypt of Cyril and Methodius. We know what happened in Resslova street, what's happened. We really want to Military History Institute destroy weapons of assassination of Reinhard Heydrich?
Thirdly, all the other deactivated firearms along with revolvers, alarm guns, paintball and airsoft replicas, etc. will be moved to Category C - weapons declaration. Which the Czech Republic is a gun license. So you're the ones who do not have zbroják and we wanted to at times with a group of friends somewhere to play paintball or you like history and you need to be in a club when you're trying within the League showcase some examples of fighting battles, so you will not be able to use or replica guns. If you want to use, you will need to obtain a gun license. This is great, huh?
Fourth, the Commission expects that her command, thus seize and destroy any new prohibited weapons, carried out by Member States. But it also does not expect any impact on the EU budget, which implies that either the confiscation cost borne by the Member States, or will expropriate without compensation.
Remember that the current draconian restrictions on guns in England began in 1987 was as follows: samonabíjejích ban guns military appearance, because it's not sporting guns, they're not hunting weapons, nobody actually needs. 
I believe that from this example and many others, it is clear that the most politically incorrect black illegal guns actually forms a buffer zone between the ban and your hunting or sporting rifle and pistol.Here, none of the above limitations, as I have them read and commented on, that would not prevent the massacres in Paris. The European Directive on the acquisition and possession of firearms but actually is one hole that allowed terrorists to obtain weapons that are banned civilian possession ago.The European Commission argues that the weapons used in the massacres of Paris were bought legally as automatic and not at all self-loading nor were smuggled outside. According to the commission were purchased as impaired because of a lack of regulations on the depreciation of the terrorists easily repaired to its original state. This is in contradiction with the European directive, that clearly says that deactivated firearms must be irreversibly modified nonfunctional. The procedures of these adjustments were set by Member States and to avoid this very situation when a state decides to put up through the barrel of the two pins is enough, which obviously is not enough, she ordered directive to issue common guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques to ensure that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable. And the authority for issuing these guidelines and for ensuring their compliance with the European Commission. Yes, you read or you listen to me well, see for yourself. Directive No. 2008/51 EC, Article 13.1 states: The Commission shall in accordance with Article 13a. 2 common guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques to ensure that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable. The next paragraph says: Member States shall implement the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive by 28 July 2010. We end 2015. They shall forthwith communicate to the Commission the text thereof. This means that the commission knew about this problem for at least five years, has done nothing. Only last week, they hastily issued instructions are sewn hastily, that will prevent further massacres in the hope that people overlook the fact that even the Parisian massacre could have been avoided if the Commission five years doing something. Something with what there is only one correct what needs to be pointed out.
Unfortunately, the situation with discussing with the intent to enforce at any cost, that information is serious, the Commission is committed to its plans at any price in the shortest possible time.Therefore, you again I address you appealed to his fellow MEPs and colleagues of the fractions in which you are associated, I can see the Minister of Agriculture, so I of course immediately think of hunting, I can see the Minister of Defense, among others. A lot of instructors who holding a gun, as I have described them, and hold them will have to stop when the directive will apply and act as mentors, whether for active backups or even for a professional army, which is hired, so it brings complications of this type . Indeed, in the Czech Republic we have very stringent conditions for obtaining a firearms license, however, and it is right that balance rights obligations, owners of firearms licenses have then great options, what to buy and what to do.
Despite these relatively large possibilities and the fact that the standard of living is higher than in the original fifteen European Commission, once again, are the offenses of weapons absolute minimum, especially when you take offenses of legal weapons from legitimate firearm in categories A, B C. They are completely miniature level of statistical error. This clearly implies - weapons in the Czech Republic and legislation, whether it is the Arms Act 111/2002 plus other prováděčky, pose a safety risk. A ban on semi-automatic weapons is nonsense, because today the already prohibited weapons are the weapons most watched, the most watched. Each one gun must be specifically permit issued by the Police of the Czech Republic. Each one weapon must be registered and every one weapon is regularly checked by the police when extending zbrojáku. We have a central register of approved already prováděčka to ban the sale of guns and ammunition over the Internet, regulates the availability of weapon parts. Those measures, which the Czech Republic with the tradition that here in our country's history, designs and has already carried out a number of measures, it is really very much.
I would perhaps use only that there's minister of defense, who happens to be from one side, like Ms EU Commissioner Jourová make it possible to explain, I understand that not every woman indulges in arms like myself or Ms. Bebarová -Rujbrová, but maybe a little education, you may need it if someone from the Ministry of Defence, Mrs. Jourova conducted a briefing on what types of weapons are not written to people who do not really understand that they did not write nonsense. I will here read response to its letter that it sent, it's a little embarrassing that at least Mrs. Jourová not able to with anyone advice who would these things be little better studied, so it was representative Lex writes: Dear European Commissioner, just We have read your comments on the directive on the regulation of weapons in the EU. With all due respect to you and your work, I must say that this professional disgrace that in his speech demonstrated recently, Mr. Senator Frantisek Bublan, we saw it in an interview, was not unique, it probably is a general phenomenon, and I politely said, rozesmutněn very fact that people who have or will have the right to decide about it, they have bad information and insight about what decisions. As senator so you're in a statement compounded apples and oranges. In one sentence talking about illegally modified weapons, so-called. Reactivation of deactivated weapons, and in the same sentence, you talk about restriction semi-automatic, semi-automatic weapons. So let me tell you one sweet secret: These are two completely different things.Yes, I understand the European Commission, I did not like that many a terrorist can buy reactivated gun and go with her to wipe out concert hall. Believe that this does not ignore anyone, even legal holders of weapons, who incidentally belongs to the people who most should ensure that they keep themselves abide by the law, but it is still talking about reactivated weapons, ie weapons that were originally military, then very casually deactivated, according to our concept of the Firearms Act devalued to not fire at all, and then again some handyman referred back to střelbyschopného state.Yes, this is a really big problem.
Note, however, that these weapons have a very limited range of resources that no such weapons do not come from the Czech Republic. Why? Because we have a well-defined procedure devaluation of weapons, for example. Decree of the Ministry of Trade and Industry 371/2002, and given (?) Into practice its application. Each weapon has depreciated to see more police. I repeat it here again. So the solution to the problem of abuse reactivated weapons is not about banning them because teroristní bans - where we know everyone. The solution is to determine the correct procedure for depreciation. Then because the market does not appear anything terrorists might reactivate.
But then still we are talking about semi-automatic weapons, military appearance, as defined by the directive, which wants to ban. And here, Madam Commissioner Jourová, the European Commission is completely wrong. Here, I never found the only real reason why the Commission wants to ban these weapons. These weapons have only the Czech Republic, estimated around 100 thousand.people and those weapons are an estimated 200 thousand. pieces. On the European scale and multiply it 30-50násobkem. These are all legal weapons, to which the European Union can get a firearms license holder or similar document abroad, who may appoint different than ours arms.These are all weapons, which each have one specific issue relevant police department permission to purchase and that every once registered and regularly inspected and tested by police. Terrorists do not have these weapons and not used.
Let me conclude my speech, you, esteemed colleague and dear colleagues, be sure that my goal is not to obstruct or you receive members of the ruling coalition in some discomfort. I will propose a resolution that you now read, and if you liked this resolution, I am ready yet to be on a break with individual colleagues to agree to any adjustments let you know when I shift into the point that we approve here. I do not really think it is important and I think that time - give it to me in the week before the holidays, when we've got a wide range of third reading, I do not know. I think, and I promise that I had I to do nothing fundamentally will not rise, that if it ranked as for myself I say that we can only vote on the resolution that you will allow me now to read, and indeed, much beg you, do not take it lightly and support me the proposal for inclusion on today as a point - ideally the first point, but if they have different points were included, as well as the subsequent point. Much of what you please about that support. If it did not go today, so let's try to design a program of twenty-seventh, twenty-eighth, and yet it is the twenty-ninth meeting ...
 And let me tell you, therefore, in conclusion read the draft resolution to the case that I'll know what we voted for. A draft resolution to the Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament to tighten the conditions for the control of acquisition and possession of weapons and ammunition proposed directive from the European Commission:
The first Parliament of the Czech Republic expresses disagreement with the European Commission's intention to strengthen control, registration, acquisition and possession of weapons and ammunition are kept and used legally in accordance with the national law of the Member States of the European Union.
2nd Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament rejects the European Commission to interfere in functioning control system, accounting, acquisition and possession of weapons and ammunition set by Czech law.
3rd Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament expressed support for the establishment of functional measures that will lead to combat illegal trafficking, acquisition, possession and handling of other weapons and ammunition.
4th Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament rejects the European Commission in response to the tragic events connected with terrorist acts in Paris persecuted Member States and their citizens unauthorized tightening of lawful possession of firearms ammunition.
Fifth Parliament of the Czech Republic declares that every citizen of the Czech Republic, which meets the legal requirements of the Czech Republic, has the right to keep a gun and refuses repression zákonadbalých citizens of the Czech Republic.
6th Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament refuses to meet very vague by the European Commission, which lead to a suppression of the rights of citizens of the Czech Republic.
7th Chamber of Deputies of the Czech Parliament Instructs the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic to take all legal and diplomatic measures to prevent the adoption of such a directive, which would interfere with Czech law on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons and ammunition, thus interfering with the rights of citizens Czech Republic.
This is a draft resolution, which I am prepared to have some of you who are interested in doing, have fun and truly you very please to support this proposal and I promise that my long introduction that I'm here now had I will not repeat. My objective is not therefore obstruct, in fact this law I consider to be very crucial. 

[Image: 46673-%C4%8Dernochov%C3%A1_profil_top.jpg]
Mgr. Jana Černochová
  • ODS

  • MEP
Tako mimo grede, dan D, ko se bo o tem glasovalo v EU parlamentu je 7 December
Očitno gre torej vse po zelo hitrem postopku, tako hitrem, da je kar neverjetno - predlog 18.11., glasovanje 7.12., tj. prej kot v treh tednih. Zanimiv način delovanja demokracije na ravni EU.
Lučke že gorijo, veseli december je blizu.
Kot vedno, bo tudi letos za pridne 6.dec. nosil Miklavž, za strelce pa 7.dec. parkeljni.
Ne gre pozabit, da se te predlogi zdaj pod krinko ukrepov proti terorizmu z precej večjo brzino obračajo kot v preteklosti ,ko je EU komisija že imela nekaj idej kako bi tole zakuhal takrat pod Cecilio Malstrom zdaj pa sta glavna akterja Poljakinja in Grk.
(27-11-2015, 19:06)Matej045 Napisal:
Očitno gre torej vse po zelo hitrem postopku, tako hitrem, da je kar neverjetno - predlog 18.11., glasovanje 7.12., tj. prej kot v treh tednih. Zanimiv način delovanja demokracije na ravni EU.

Iz katerega drevesa si pa ti padel , EU komisija kot organ je čisto totalitarn, ima manjko demokracije kot ga ni imel noben komunajzarski centralni komite še v tako železnih časih.

Vsak, ki prijavi da ima  EU komisja kaj z demokracijo zasluži ornk batine, v CK so folk vsaj volili na nivoju partije tule ne.
Odpisal gospe Fajon na njeno zadnje pisanje.


omenjate, da je to "le predlog". Pravkar sem prebral, da bo o tem "predlogu" glasovanje že 7. decembra, torej čez 5 delovnih dni.

Strah vzbujajoče je, da se Evropska Unija v sprejemanju zakonov giblje s tako veliko hitrostjo, da je javna razprava praktično onemogočena, tisti, ki nas bodo pa ti zakoni najbolj prizadeli pa se čutimo odrinjeni, spregledani in nepomembni, ker sploh nismo poklicani v diskusijo, da povemo svoje mnjenje o športu, ki ga s srcem izvajamo, da ne omenjam grožnje z uničenjem osebne lastnine.

Kot evropsko poslanko in podpredsednico Socialdemokratske skupine Vam polagam na srce, da se vprašate, ali je takšna Evropa izrednih razmer po Vašem okusu in model države, v kateri bi radi sodelovali kot član v eni od zakonodajnih vej oblasti.
V državi, ki začrtuje direktive, smernice, ne glede, ali so le-te smiselne, ali bodo kaznovale odgovorne ali pa so tu le zaradi lepšega ali pa mogoče celo zaradi začrtane agende, da se to mora na vsak način sprejeti.
V državi, ki svoje prebivalce negira, ignorira, zanemarja in sprejema zakonodajo, ki državljanom EU ni v korist, ampak jim več kot očitno škoduje.
V državi, ki se vse bolj kaže kot, da ni več naša država, v kateri smo upali živeti. Država, ki naj bi nam prinesla blagostanje v obliki prostega pretoka ljudi, dela in kapitala, dandanes pa namesto vsega tega dobivamo le diktat oddaljene birokratske elite, ki de facto vlada, vsi ostali pa se ji moramo tiho podrejati in sprejet kar koli nam servira. Tudi, če povzdignemo glasove, da bi nas kdo slišal, da nas bodo ti ukrepi nepravično prizadeli in da ne obstaja nobena študija po kateri bi ti ukrepi kar koli reševali na tem področju ali bili potrebni.

Vse kaše da mašinerija melje v svojo pot, ne glede kaj državljani pravijo.

Vse bolj je očitno, da se v tej nad-državi zakoni ne sprejemajo več v korist državljanov, ki smo po ustavi (ampak kot kaže le na papirju) volilci in imamo v Sloveniji kot v EU oblast (spet le na papirju).
Vse bolj je očitno, da skupine, ki jih ljudje z volitvami postavimo na položaje, da NAS PREDSTAVLJAJO in ADMINISTRIRAJO (ne pa vladajo) z našo državo, odločajo MIMO volje ljudi in v svojo ali korist drugih na položajih, za dejanske "oblastnike" (ljudi) pa nimajo več posluha vse od trenutka, ko vstopijo v pisarne in sejne dvorane.


Polagam Vam na srce, da skrbno pretehtate in premislite, ali je predlagana evropska direktiva o zaostrovanju orožne zakonodaje res pravična do ljudi, katerim namerava oklestiti pravice, in ali bo realno gledano dosegla cilj, na katerega se izgovarja (varnost).
Premislite, ali ne bi bilo dovolj, da se sprejme le popravljena direktivo, ki ureja samo deaktivacijo - dekorativna orožja, ostalo (kategorije) pa prepusti takšne kot so, ker je sedanja zakonodaja na ravni članic dobra in dovolj restriktivna.
Polagam Vam tudi na srce, da se v Parlamentu in delovnih skupinah zavzamete za nas, male državljane, ki nas bo ta zakonodaja kaznovala za nekaj, česar nismo nikoli zakrivili in prepričate tudi druge, da je predlagani sveženj ukrepov slab.

s spoštovanjem
(27-11-2015, 18:56)mr.T Napisal: Tako mimo grede, dan D, ko se bo o tem glasovalo v EU parlamentu je 7 December

Lahko pojasniš, kje to piše, ker jaz kljub trudu tega ne najdem ...
Klemenc, saj si zelo srcno spisal, a vendar - ne vem, koliko je smiselno ppolagati na srce?
 Bolje vklopiti razum ;-)
Stavim pa, da bo Fajonova gladko ZA prepoved orozja.

Ni napovedan nikakršno zasedanje parlamenta zgolj telesa...
Me je forumaš opozoril da ni še čisto dan D , okej pa recmo vaja ' Tiger' , ki se je končala precej krvavo.

7. december o predlogu komisije govorili na pristojnem delavnem telesu. Na podlagi tega bodo zadevo uvrstili na eno bodočih plenarnih zasedanj

Kolikor se tudi zasledil bodo ideje prodajali tudi prisotnim notranjim ministrom na vrhu EU-Balkan  7 decembra.
Prvo branje rednega postopka na Odboru za notranji trg in zaščito potrošnikov.
Predstavnik iz Slovenije je dr. Šoltes.
(27-11-2015, 21:00)Iurium humanorum Napisal: Prvo branje rednega postopka na Odboru za notranji trg in zaščito potrošnikov.
Predstavnik iz Slovenije je dr. Šoltes.

+ Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs
+ Extraordinary meeting
Brussels : PHS - P5B001

Citat:An email sent to Dr Chris Green by London Labour MEP Anneliese Dodds said: “As European citizens, we must do all we can to assuage people’s fears and unease during this time. Banning weapons that resemble the appearance of category A weapons to the naked and untrained eye will help to do this.”
Dodds also revealed that the unelected EU commissars responsible for the gun ban plan, Elzbieta Bienkowska, and Dimitris Avramopoulos, both claim to have military experience; Bienkowska in Poland’s reserve forces, and Avramopoulos as a one-time Greek minister of defence.
Dodds also said: “There is a feeling of distinct unease across the globe. This is especially true within Paris, and could be seen at La Place de la Republique, when mourners were gathering to pay their respects three days after the terror attacks. Here, the sounds of firecrackers were mistaken for the sound of gunfire, and flowers and candles were crushed as people ran in fear of another attack. Thankfully this was a false alarm.”
Dr Green responded: “The EU is looking to ban semi-automatics. This will limit freedoms to use a currently licensed and live firearm, even when the preference of criminals is for black market Kalashnikovs… Perhaps a ban on firecrackers, which are much easier to access, would be more beneficial here to assuage people’s fears?”
Meanwhile, the sole remaining Lib Dem MEP, Catherine Bearder, told a constituent: “These proposals have already been approved and heavily scrutinised by MEPs, it is just the implementation that the Commission is now trying to fast track. I hope that this has allayed some of your fears about over-regulation and knee-jerk reactions.”
Bearder does not appear to realise that a vote on whether to adopt or reject the EU gun ban plan is due on Monday 7th December, so the proposals have not been approved. Her complacency and willingness to ignore the voters who returned her to power is dangerous.
Unfortunately the chairman of the EU’s civil liberties committee is also a Labour MEP
Soltes je za prepoved orozja in bo to direktivo podprl.
Avstrija razorožuje svoje policiste...

Lej pizdice bodo to hotele spraviti skozi 100% in bo tudi šlo na glasovanje to je skoraj nedvomno. Vprašanje pa je ali bo tudi na glasovanju šlo skozi, ker sigurno bodo na te stvari opozorili na debati. V bistvu bo tole točka preloma, če gre skozi je usoda ljudi na tem območju jasna, če pa ne gre skozi je pa vprašanje kdaj bo EU implodirala in morda celo nekako preživimo yugo^X brez hujših posledic...

Uporabnikov, ki berejo to temo: 3 Gost(ov)